I’m abiding by the Church’s definition which encompasses any belief system which goes against the established doctrine of the Church and the Apostles. Considering the impact Dispensationalism has had on American foreign policy, I would argue it’s possibly even more destructive than some past heresies. I understand heresy is a loaded term but I don’t believe I’m doing anyone any favors by lying to them. If a theology teaches in contrast to the Gospel, it’s a heresy and should be refuted. It certainly doesn’t negate anyone’s devotion or love for God necessarily, but it’s incorrect and leads to destruction and division as I try to point out.
Great post, Karis. You are the poster child for all Evangelicals who've woken up to the Zebra in the middle of the sanctuary. All sorts of rationalization about not having a picture of Jesus on the wall during worship (who are we worshipping after all) or, Zebra forbid, a crucifix with Jesus' battered and bloody corpus on the cross. Oh, but a nicely polished aluminum cross logo, go for it.
I certainly acknowledge all the faithful Christian Evangelical believers, but this idea that Israel as a covenant people lives on is, as you say, heresy, with deadly nuclear consequences for mankind.
It never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people support a nation that denied the divinity of Christ. Modern Jews are still Jews. They read the Torah and practice beliefs that are no longer neccessary. We forgive Israel for things that would bring about war, if it were done by other countries. Don't forget that Israel bombed the Liberty, even though it was flying an American Flag.
While I support Israel's and every other nations right to survive, we don't have to support them militarily.
I have a problem when you can speak out against communism, socialism, racism, but you can't speak out against Israel without being convicted of heresy.
Remember, the jews rejected Christ and freed a murderer in his place.
The vast majority of people -- famous pundits and non-famous posters alike -- seem unable to pat their head and rub their stomachs at the same time. This reflects a strange inability to think Both/And but instead stubbornly thinking Either/Or. Either Israel is angelic, or Iran is angelic; either Israel is a monster, or Iran is a monster. They could BOTH be pathological monster nations. Or, if you want to challenge your small minds even further, one nation could be relatively better than the other, but both could still be seriously problematic.
Could it be possible that Washington actors like Mike Pompeo and Mike Lee, among others, are violently opposed to 100% disclosure on the JFK assassination files after almost 65 years because it would reveal culpability on the State of Israel? Other than protecting the Bush clan, I can’t think of any other rational political motives.
I just want to clarify something, I think you’re pretty much dead on. Evangelicalism has deeply infected American right (and to a lesser degree left) views on Israel, which is an explicitly jewish nation state. I’ll repeat what I have to tell people all the time. Jews are not Christians, they are not even Christians trapped in a Jewish body. They are not us, and the entire New Testament separates us (among other things). They should be viewed accordingly, and not viewed as if they are some Christian bulwark.
However! The policies of a nation or people need not be limited to friendship only with Christians and animosity towards all others. Earthly decisions have to be made which benefit the whole people or nation, and being closely allied with Israel could be argued to be a positive decision. But this must be made only with earthly reality in mind. This confusion drives me insane.
I live in a deeply Orthodox country which has had plenty of dealings with Israel and the patriarchate has a relationship with Israel too with administering, protecting, and refurbishing holy sites. But the relationship is entirely a-theological. If Israel were Buddhist, the relationship wouldn’t change. Evangelicals who can’t get this through their thick skulls endanger us all needlessly.
I support the State of Israel. And not because of religion. The British Empire certainly messed up many areas in the world. South Africa, India, the Middle East, the American Colonies, etc. Their interference in Arabia and the squabbles with the Ottoman Empire, not withstanding, caused many problems because of British self-interest.
That said, it is clear that no matter what country the Jews are in, they have been despised and hated. They have been hated because of their religion; then hated because of their race. They have been hated because they were poor; then being denied jobs except for the lowly banking jobs, they became very successful and despised because they were rich. They remained in faith communities and were condemned because they did not integrate. Then they were condemned because they integrated and became secular Jews.
Persecuted in Pogroms in Russia and Europe, the only reason the Zionist movement gained a foothold was as a method to survive and be left alone. Areas other than Palestine were recommended for a Jewish State, such as Uganda, Africa and even South America. Ultimately it was decided to purchase Palestinian land from the Turkish landlords. That is right! Legal Purchases!
Unfortunately we are all victims of the hatred of the Jews that lead to the Holocaust. Decisions made decades ago to help the Jews out of European persecution now lead to us being victims from our compassion toward the Jews.
I would be most interested if anyone here has ever been proselytized to become a Jew? On the other hand, have any here ever witnessed and attempted to convert a Jew to the Christian Faith? If yes, did you attempt to persuade them with the Scriptures, specifically Isaiah 53 and Suffering Servant? Well, those Scriptures pointing to Jesus are available because of the Jews, not in spite of the Jews. It is appropriate to ask in what way Christian actions toward the Jews would cause Jews to not want to become Christians. Or do Christians pray for the Jews with love and ask that the Father forgive not only them, but all people. After all, the Romans were crucifiers too! We all are guilty.
Therefore, I stand with Israel! They just want to survive; to be left alone.
You are more than welcome to support Israel or any other foreign country. But as an American, I’m forced to give up a significant portion of my income to the US government which uses that money to purchase weapons, kill civilians, and support Israel’s military. That is unconscionable and evil. I don’t want any of my money going to other countries, but especially one that uses my people and our wealth and uses that money to murder innocents.
But it is relevant. Our country decided to help during WWII. Because of that decision, we are forced into today’s discussions. The US and the allies decided to help around 680,000 Jews flee Europe. Because Iran and Hamas have made it their mission, per their government Charters, to destroy Israel, we are involved whether we like it or not. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
Calling something a heresy in Christianity should mean that it impacts someone’s personal salvation. Meaning, if someone denies or holds a belief, then that person is not a Christian. Denying the deity or resurrection of Christ would be heresy. Dispensationalism would not be. It’s okay to critique it and especially to critique its application to foreign policy. But that doesn’t make its proponents Christian heretics.
A heresy is simply a novel error or corruption of the true faith. This "is it a doctrine of salvific importance" question is a modern (protestant) one. I wouldn't presume to know if belief in a certain error jeopardizes someone's salvation, only that it is an error and has real consequences.
A novel error is heterodoxy. Heresy has always been defined as something essential to the Christian faith that impacts salvation. This is not unique to “modern (Protestant)” history.
All heresies are novel errors but not all novel errors are heresies.
The question of “does this impact salvation” is anachronistic because for 1500 years, believing “the faith” meant accepting every part of it that your mother church taught. So anything opposed to her doctrines was a heresy.
Dispensationalism has a completely different framework for salvation than historic Christianity. It splits apart Israel and the Church as two distinct peoples of God, and as a consequence, two distinct paths of salvation. But there's only one, and thats through Jesus. So yes, it is a heresy, and even one with salvific consequences from a protestant POV.
I support the State of Israel. And not because of religion. The British Empire certainly messed up many areas in the world. South Africa, India, the Middle East, the American Colonies, etc. Their interference in Arabia and the squabbles with the Ottoman Empire, not withstanding, caused many problems because of British self-interest.
That said, it is clear that no matter what country the Jews are in, they have been despised and hated. They have been hated because of their religion; then hated because of their race. They have been hated because they were poor; then being denied jobs except for the lowly banking jobs, they became very successful and despised because they were rich. They remained in faith communities and were condemned because they did not integrate. Then they were condemned because they integrated and became secular Jews.
Persecuted in Pogroms in Russia and Europe, the only reason the Zionist movement gained a foothold was as a method to survive and be left alone. Areas other than Palestine were recommended for a Jewish State, such as Uganda, Africa and even South America. Ultimately it was decided to purchase Palestinian land from the Turkish landlords. That is right! Legal Purchases!
Unfortunately we are all victims of the hatred of the Jews that lead to the Holocaust. Decisions made decades ago to help the Jews out of European persecution now lead to us being victims from our compassion toward the Jews.
I would be most interested if anyone here has ever been proselytized to become a Jew? On the other hand, have any here ever witnessed and attempted to convert a Jew to the Christian Faith? If yes, did you attempt to persuade them with the Scriptures, specifically Isaiah 53 and Suffering Servant? Well, those Scriptures pointing to Jesus are available because of the Jews, not in spite of the Jews. It is just not appropriate to not ask in what way Christian actions toward the Jews would cause Jews to not want to become Christians. Or do Christians pray for the Jews with love and ask that the Father forgive not only them, but all people. After all, the Romans were crucifies too! We all are guilty.
Therefore, I stand with Israel! They just want to survive; to be left alone.
Hello, reformed protestant here, you are absolutely right! I refuse to submit to the authority of your "Holy Catholic Church". I may disagree with what you write here, but I think it makes sense coming from your perspective. I do think you lay it on a bit thick when you compare dispensationalism to Mormonism and other cults. Do you believe that dispensationalism, and premillennialism as a whole, endangers ones salvation?
Thanks for reading. I answered this in another comment but based on the Church’s teachings, heresy in any form is dangerous and destructive, as St. Peter warned. I would never presume to guess or declare someone’s salvation. God is the judge of men’s hearts. But as we can see, the fruits of heresy are rotten. Americans are bitterly divided culturally and spiritually and have unknowingly funded a monstrous regime which explicitly rejects Christ.
I’m abiding by the Church’s definition which encompasses any belief system which goes against the established doctrine of the Church and the Apostles. Considering the impact Dispensationalism has had on American foreign policy, I would argue it’s possibly even more destructive than some past heresies. I understand heresy is a loaded term but I don’t believe I’m doing anyone any favors by lying to them. If a theology teaches in contrast to the Gospel, it’s a heresy and should be refuted. It certainly doesn’t negate anyone’s devotion or love for God necessarily, but it’s incorrect and leads to destruction and division as I try to point out.
Great post, Karis. You are the poster child for all Evangelicals who've woken up to the Zebra in the middle of the sanctuary. All sorts of rationalization about not having a picture of Jesus on the wall during worship (who are we worshipping after all) or, Zebra forbid, a crucifix with Jesus' battered and bloody corpus on the cross. Oh, but a nicely polished aluminum cross logo, go for it.
I certainly acknowledge all the faithful Christian Evangelical believers, but this idea that Israel as a covenant people lives on is, as you say, heresy, with deadly nuclear consequences for mankind.
Keep up the good work.
Peace and Blessings to you.
✨️🕊🙏🎊✨️
It never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people support a nation that denied the divinity of Christ. Modern Jews are still Jews. They read the Torah and practice beliefs that are no longer neccessary. We forgive Israel for things that would bring about war, if it were done by other countries. Don't forget that Israel bombed the Liberty, even though it was flying an American Flag.
While I support Israel's and every other nations right to survive, we don't have to support them militarily.
I have a problem when you can speak out against communism, socialism, racism, but you can't speak out against Israel without being convicted of heresy.
Remember, the jews rejected Christ and freed a murderer in his place.
The vast majority of people -- famous pundits and non-famous posters alike -- seem unable to pat their head and rub their stomachs at the same time. This reflects a strange inability to think Both/And but instead stubbornly thinking Either/Or. Either Israel is angelic, or Iran is angelic; either Israel is a monster, or Iran is a monster. They could BOTH be pathological monster nations. Or, if you want to challenge your small minds even further, one nation could be relatively better than the other, but both could still be seriously problematic.
Could it be possible that Washington actors like Mike Pompeo and Mike Lee, among others, are violently opposed to 100% disclosure on the JFK assassination files after almost 65 years because it would reveal culpability on the State of Israel? Other than protecting the Bush clan, I can’t think of any other rational political motives.
I just want to clarify something, I think you’re pretty much dead on. Evangelicalism has deeply infected American right (and to a lesser degree left) views on Israel, which is an explicitly jewish nation state. I’ll repeat what I have to tell people all the time. Jews are not Christians, they are not even Christians trapped in a Jewish body. They are not us, and the entire New Testament separates us (among other things). They should be viewed accordingly, and not viewed as if they are some Christian bulwark.
However! The policies of a nation or people need not be limited to friendship only with Christians and animosity towards all others. Earthly decisions have to be made which benefit the whole people or nation, and being closely allied with Israel could be argued to be a positive decision. But this must be made only with earthly reality in mind. This confusion drives me insane.
I live in a deeply Orthodox country which has had plenty of dealings with Israel and the patriarchate has a relationship with Israel too with administering, protecting, and refurbishing holy sites. But the relationship is entirely a-theological. If Israel were Buddhist, the relationship wouldn’t change. Evangelicals who can’t get this through their thick skulls endanger us all needlessly.
Chilling ending! Great article, I was not familiar with this heresy… it makes a lot of sense though!
I support the State of Israel. And not because of religion. The British Empire certainly messed up many areas in the world. South Africa, India, the Middle East, the American Colonies, etc. Their interference in Arabia and the squabbles with the Ottoman Empire, not withstanding, caused many problems because of British self-interest.
That said, it is clear that no matter what country the Jews are in, they have been despised and hated. They have been hated because of their religion; then hated because of their race. They have been hated because they were poor; then being denied jobs except for the lowly banking jobs, they became very successful and despised because they were rich. They remained in faith communities and were condemned because they did not integrate. Then they were condemned because they integrated and became secular Jews.
Persecuted in Pogroms in Russia and Europe, the only reason the Zionist movement gained a foothold was as a method to survive and be left alone. Areas other than Palestine were recommended for a Jewish State, such as Uganda, Africa and even South America. Ultimately it was decided to purchase Palestinian land from the Turkish landlords. That is right! Legal Purchases!
Unfortunately we are all victims of the hatred of the Jews that lead to the Holocaust. Decisions made decades ago to help the Jews out of European persecution now lead to us being victims from our compassion toward the Jews.
I would be most interested if anyone here has ever been proselytized to become a Jew? On the other hand, have any here ever witnessed and attempted to convert a Jew to the Christian Faith? If yes, did you attempt to persuade them with the Scriptures, specifically Isaiah 53 and Suffering Servant? Well, those Scriptures pointing to Jesus are available because of the Jews, not in spite of the Jews. It is appropriate to ask in what way Christian actions toward the Jews would cause Jews to not want to become Christians. Or do Christians pray for the Jews with love and ask that the Father forgive not only them, but all people. After all, the Romans were crucifiers too! We all are guilty.
Therefore, I stand with Israel! They just want to survive; to be left alone.
You are more than welcome to support Israel or any other foreign country. But as an American, I’m forced to give up a significant portion of my income to the US government which uses that money to purchase weapons, kill civilians, and support Israel’s military. That is unconscionable and evil. I don’t want any of my money going to other countries, but especially one that uses my people and our wealth and uses that money to murder innocents.
Are you saying you would not have spent US money during WWII against Germany?
No, because I didn’t even mention WWII. That’s irrelevant to the current discussion at hand.
But it is relevant. Our country decided to help during WWII. Because of that decision, we are forced into today’s discussions. The US and the allies decided to help around 680,000 Jews flee Europe. Because Iran and Hamas have made it their mission, per their government Charters, to destroy Israel, we are involved whether we like it or not. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
Calling something a heresy in Christianity should mean that it impacts someone’s personal salvation. Meaning, if someone denies or holds a belief, then that person is not a Christian. Denying the deity or resurrection of Christ would be heresy. Dispensationalism would not be. It’s okay to critique it and especially to critique its application to foreign policy. But that doesn’t make its proponents Christian heretics.
A heresy is simply a novel error or corruption of the true faith. This "is it a doctrine of salvific importance" question is a modern (protestant) one. I wouldn't presume to know if belief in a certain error jeopardizes someone's salvation, only that it is an error and has real consequences.
A novel error is heterodoxy. Heresy has always been defined as something essential to the Christian faith that impacts salvation. This is not unique to “modern (Protestant)” history.
All heresies are novel errors but not all novel errors are heresies.
The question of “does this impact salvation” is anachronistic because for 1500 years, believing “the faith” meant accepting every part of it that your mother church taught. So anything opposed to her doctrines was a heresy.
Dispensationalism has a completely different framework for salvation than historic Christianity. It splits apart Israel and the Church as two distinct peoples of God, and as a consequence, two distinct paths of salvation. But there's only one, and thats through Jesus. So yes, it is a heresy, and even one with salvific consequences from a protestant POV.
I support the State of Israel. And not because of religion. The British Empire certainly messed up many areas in the world. South Africa, India, the Middle East, the American Colonies, etc. Their interference in Arabia and the squabbles with the Ottoman Empire, not withstanding, caused many problems because of British self-interest.
That said, it is clear that no matter what country the Jews are in, they have been despised and hated. They have been hated because of their religion; then hated because of their race. They have been hated because they were poor; then being denied jobs except for the lowly banking jobs, they became very successful and despised because they were rich. They remained in faith communities and were condemned because they did not integrate. Then they were condemned because they integrated and became secular Jews.
Persecuted in Pogroms in Russia and Europe, the only reason the Zionist movement gained a foothold was as a method to survive and be left alone. Areas other than Palestine were recommended for a Jewish State, such as Uganda, Africa and even South America. Ultimately it was decided to purchase Palestinian land from the Turkish landlords. That is right! Legal Purchases!
Unfortunately we are all victims of the hatred of the Jews that lead to the Holocaust. Decisions made decades ago to help the Jews out of European persecution now lead to us being victims from our compassion toward the Jews.
I would be most interested if anyone here has ever been proselytized to become a Jew? On the other hand, have any here ever witnessed and attempted to convert a Jew to the Christian Faith? If yes, did you attempt to persuade them with the Scriptures, specifically Isaiah 53 and Suffering Servant? Well, those Scriptures pointing to Jesus are available because of the Jews, not in spite of the Jews. It is just not appropriate to not ask in what way Christian actions toward the Jews would cause Jews to not want to become Christians. Or do Christians pray for the Jews with love and ask that the Father forgive not only them, but all people. After all, the Romans were crucifies too! We all are guilty.
Therefore, I stand with Israel! They just want to survive; to be left alone.
Hello, reformed protestant here, you are absolutely right! I refuse to submit to the authority of your "Holy Catholic Church". I may disagree with what you write here, but I think it makes sense coming from your perspective. I do think you lay it on a bit thick when you compare dispensationalism to Mormonism and other cults. Do you believe that dispensationalism, and premillennialism as a whole, endangers ones salvation?
Thanks for reading. I answered this in another comment but based on the Church’s teachings, heresy in any form is dangerous and destructive, as St. Peter warned. I would never presume to guess or declare someone’s salvation. God is the judge of men’s hearts. But as we can see, the fruits of heresy are rotten. Americans are bitterly divided culturally and spiritually and have unknowingly funded a monstrous regime which explicitly rejects Christ.
I think our disagreement might be more political in nature then. I do not believe that the government of Israel is the covenantal Israel.
Sadly, many American Christians do though.